respond to ktemoc’s post on allah
Post on Jan.08, 2008
i had actually decided not to blog on the herald-allah controversy anymore but i can’t help myself when i read what ktemoc had to say. i need to respond to his post. instead of responding at the comments section of his post, since it will be long, i am responding it here.
I must ask the publishers and editors of the Herald why they had to use the ‘Allah’ word when an alternative and more commonly used word ‘Tuhan’ exists?
because ALLAH does not belongs to the muslim exclusively. herald do use tuhan too but sometimes in some context, ALLAH has to be used. i believe somewhere (sorry i forgot and can’t dig it out) herald or some bloggers had explained about its usage of ALLAH and tuhan.
No doubt the Christians supporters will refer to the Iban Bible’s use of a form of A-word, but is the Iban Bible a staple reference for Malaysians Christians in general? The use of the Iban Bible is peculiar and limited to one particular community, such that the PM has allowed its continued reference to the A-word.
but it is not only the iban bible that has used ALLAH. other malay language bibles too, and ALLAH had been used by the chrisitans in sabah and sarawak for a long long time, as this writer wrote.
But not so in Bahasa, where the readership could embrace the Malays and worst of all, its use reaching the eyes of the PAS political propagandists.
oh you mean when old herald is sold to the paper man or sent for recycling? or when old herald is used to wrap the bungkus of nasi lemak/kandar or roti canai? oh horror! now you are giving idea to the gomen that next they might give a ruling that catholics after reading herald, must burn the herald! danger alert! if herald somehow or other land in the hands of some malays, and they read the word ALLAH… swooshh!!… they will have a sudden urge to be a christian!
Indeed I question the sincerity of the Herald publishers and editors in insisting on using a word that is not regularly used by Malaysian Christians. If there is no sinister proselytising intent, then why persist obdurately in wanting to use it?
excuse me, my dear, are you living bawah tempurung? malaysian christians in sabah and sarawak had been using ALLAH all the while… many many years back. the herald’s bahasa section caters mainly to the catholics in sabah and sarawak.
We may not like what UMNO is doing with its Islamist agenda, but that doesn’t mean we ourselves cannot be fair (standing above the grubby gutter religious politics of UMNO and PAS) and question the true intent and sincerity of the Herald. We shouldn’t blindly take the side of the Herald just to spite or merely oppose UMNO (or the Muslims).
but are you being fair to straight away form an opinion that herald has bad intention in using ALLAH? (when earlier you mentioned you wanted to ask herald’s editor/publisher). this coming esp. from a non catholic and non muslim (and one who is not in the country too!). question the intent and sincerity yes, but can’t you give herald the benefit of doubt instead of jumping to conclusion that herald has bad intentions?
anyway, the herald is a catholic publication. i am a catholic. i had been reading the herald for years and lately from last year onwards i had been contributing articles to herald (and don’t forget i work for the church too) – i can safely say herald’s use of ALLAH has nothing to do with proselytising at all. of course i expect people not to believe me. of course i expect people to say i am bias because of that – being catholic and working for the church – i tend to side herald. oh well no point for me to say no no, that’s not true, right? so… whatever.
i really wonder, how you of all people, can think that herald has bad intention (esp. to proselytisise) in using ALLAH. i understand if people like fatima idris (malaysiakini writer) and recently arbibi ashoy (malaysiakin writer too) have that kind of shallow thinking. when i first read about fatima saying herald’s use of ALLAH is to proselytisise, my first reaction was to go LOL!
first of all herald are only distributed to churches – how will muslims get hold of them? secondly even if they get hold of them, are you insulting them that just by reading/seeing the word ALLAH, they will turn away from their own faith, islam, and become christian? that was why i laughed when i first read fatima wrote about herald trying to proselytise muslims).
and no, we use ALLAH a lot is not because the arab christians are using it but ALLAH appears in the indonesian bible, the bible which our catholic church uses (since we can’t have our own ‘malaysian BM’ bible!). most of our publication we will quote from the bible, and since the bible has ALLAH in it, naturally we use ALLAH.
(btw i have a very old church song book in bahasa and many of the songs there use ALLAH)
But I definitely do not support the Herald’s whining, wailing and whinging about its right to use the A-word to refer to the Christian God. I am not interested in supporting its selfish agenda. I want to concentrate on publicising the BN’s corruption, cronyism and crimes rather than the Church’s recruiting drive, by stealth.
whining, wailing and whinging? it looks like you are the one whining wailing and whinging that herald has bad intention lah, trying to proselytisise lah. the only thing herald did was to file a writ of summons to use ALLAH – was that whining, wailing and whinging?
selfish agenda? how do you know for sure? see, again, here you had made up your mind already that herald had bad intention of using ALLAH, i.e. is to recruit members!! oh well… it’s a free country… everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, so if that’s your opinion, fine, stick to it!! of course i understand there are lots of others (not only fatima and arbibi) with the same view as you too… so be it.
yes, we have one side here who will say the issue is about proselytising (like arbibi) but also one side that say the issue is about human rights. of course i agree with the latter. yes, i may even say for herald to drop its use of ALLAH, if there was no ruling for it to drop it… if you know what i mean!! as ALLAH does not belongs exclusively to malaysian muslim, why should the malaysian muslim government ban non muslim from using it? that is denying our RIGHTS to use it! (oops. someone will come in with some argument about rights again… something about it not being absolute or whatever. sigh). oh and also, like steve oh, i agree this ban on use of allah by the cabinet is really bizarre and like what bishop paul tan said, the ban will only put malaysia in a bad light in the eyes of the world.
———————————————————————————————–
extract from an internal reflection paper our church uses within homes:
Sabda dianugerahi Allah terutamanya untuk penyelamatan umat manusia melalui kepercayaan kepada Yesus Kristus. Sabda Allah terdiri daripada Kitab Suci yang diilhami Allah untuk menyangkal kesalahan-kesalahan, menjadi pedoman hidup umat Kristus dan memberi pengajaran tentang kehidupan yang salih. Beginilah caranya umat-umat yang mengabdikan diri kepada Allah dilengkapkan supaya sedia melaksanakan kerja-kerja kebajikan. (2 Timotius 3, 14-17)
(oops. i hope muslims who read this won’t feel the urge to convert – as defined by the gomen… and now ktemoc)
english translation:
God’s gift of the Word is primarily for our salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. The Word of God consists of all scripture inspired by God that is useful for refuting error, for guiding people’s lives and for teaching them to be upright. This is how believers who are dedicated to God become fully equipped and ready for any good work. (2 Tim 3, 14-17)
Filed in christian, government, malaysia, politics, religion















January 8th, 2008 on 11:57 AM
So KTemoc supports proselytizing by muslims but not others. Looks like he is a fanatic then.
January 8th, 2008 on 1:05 PM
“this coming esp. from a non catholic and non muslim (and one who is not in the country too!).”
Not trying to be pedantic, but are you saying that the person commenting on this topic has to be either a muslim or a catholic (or a Christian for that matter) and have to be in the country? You might say ktemoc was unfair in his comments (assumptions and all)…but that has really nothing to do with his religious leanings nor his whereabouts…right?
January 8th, 2008 on 2:52 PM
I have heard that Ktemoc’s mom dragged him off to church when he was young and could have developed a mania against Christianity consequently.
January 8th, 2008 on 4:30 PM
January 8th, 2008 on 4:46 PM
Hey i saw this neat one at comments on Ktemoc`s:
RTM, Astro and Censorship Board should ban `A..` from hindi movies otherwise muslims will become hindus.
Also ban `A…` because it refers to Goddes Durga.
January 8th, 2008 on 9:20 PM
Lucia,
The sad truth is that we humans are quarreling about what God should be called and that Allah is as much for Christian as well as for Muslims.
The Bible uses so many words to denote God – Yahweh, Almighty, Lord God, God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and many many more. It’s all about linguistic philosophy and it would change the fact that God is God, the God that created the universe and humans. Humans are trying to find words to express the Almighty Creator, and would it matter what He is called?
In the earlier days of China where the Christians had to hide to assemble for communion due to the Communist regime’s persecution. The Christians did go into hiding to assemble and hold communion. They didn’t fight the system and die a martyr, for that is folly.
Just accept the fact that here in Malaysia, the people do not want the Christians to use the word and just use all other words except one; and it would not change God or reduces God to impotence.
If God is God, as preached in the Bible, then He is what He is, as Jesus said.
BTW, I may have use the word “Moral Judge” in your earlier posting, but I did not intend to say that you had become a Moral Judge. What I intend is, that the statements made by you and your rejections and conclusions of CLS as committing adultery is unacceptable, is, afterall, a judgment made. To me, King David had thousands of wives, as well as the others named in the Old Testament. We sing the praises and psalms; ain’t we accepting King David as a moral King? What about Lot and his two daughters that laid on him and bore him sons in terms of morality?
I am not debating about the religion. What I feel is that, we need to be less judgmental of other and let God judge the others. In Christianity, it’s about judging self and living the life in the way shown by Lord Jesus.
As regard Herald, the matter between the publication is a legal matter and is entirely up to Herald to seek the courts for a legal decision in accordance with the law of the land.
Lucia, sorry for being a bit “harsh” comment; but I am speaking bluntly as a fellow Christian.
January 8th, 2008 on 9:49 PM
Anwar Ibrahim leaps into the fray (while PAS is silent):
BN playing Islamic card ahead of vote: Anwar
Jan 8, 08 5:05pm
updated 6.50pm He labelled it ridiculous nonsense that only Muslims can use the word ‘Allah’ and backed up his assertion by quoting from the Quran.
http://malaysiakini.com/
January 8th, 2008 on 9:52 PM
Mave, you wrote: “Just accept the fact that here in Malaysia, the people do not want the Christians to use the word and just use all other words except one; and it would not change God or reduces God to impotence.”
I’m not here answering for Lucia but giving my opinion why this state of affair arises.
They don’t want you to use that word because they feel that they alone are worshiping the Creator(to use the usual monotheistic parlance) correctly. There is the real supremacist factor and outlook beneath it all and people very beats around the bush in not acknowledging this angle because it does not sound politically correct.
No Mave, it was Solomon, son of David who had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Jewish (apologists?) explain that he used these marriages to strengthen his strategic alliance abroad. I doubt. I think he was also very horny. If he wasn’t, why the fling with the Queen of Sheba, to whom it has been alleged that he lost the ancient treasure of Israel, the Ark of the Covenant.
The OT is a also historical documentaion of yore ; the characters should not all be regarded as moral beings because they are also often very flawed characters. Now, you don’t want me to rant on, surely….
,
January 9th, 2008 on 2:11 AM
kesava
to be fair, KT did not actually mentioned or implied he support proselytizing to muslims. and no, i know him well. he’s not a fanatic. just don’t know what came over him that day to so strongly insisted that herald is proselytizing when using the word allah.
ivan
no i don’t mean that. notice i add in “ESP. coming…” so i do mean anyone can comment.well if people were to feel what you feel, then i suppose i should withdraw that phrase all together.
wits
really kah? yep that would have certainly explain it how all of a sudden (and very surprisingly for me) he came out so strongly insisting to the death that herald is proselytizing by using the word allah.
mave
quoting from you:
“What I intend is, that the statements made by you and your rejections and conclusions of CLS as committing adultery is unacceptable, is, afterall, a judgment made.”
again here you misunderstand me. i never at all say what CLS did was unacceptable. in fact (if you ask wits, he can testify to this) right in the beginning, i was the one who keep harping on we should not say what he did was wrong or right since it is his own private affair.
oh wait. ok i see that you posted a comment again at my earlier ‘privacy and adultery’ post that you did understand me after all. yes, we share the same view on this matter lah!!
data
thanks for pointing that out to me. i had missed it.
January 9th, 2008 on 2:19 AM
Apart from being a rights issue, there is also a selective historical revisionism that’s occuring here. The pedigree of the usage of the term “Allah” as the translation for “God” in Malay goes back half a millenia.
Historical records as well as documentary records show the use of the term “Allah” in the Kitab salat as-sawai (Christian Prayers) of Gregorio de Gregorus printed in the Malay language in Jawi type in 1514 (copy extant in the British Museum). Catechism in Malay produced by Francis Xavier (the saint of Melaka and Jesuit fame) in 1545 also used the term “Allah”.
In terms of Christian scriptures, one of the earliest translation of scripture into a non-European language in the modern era was Albert Cornelisson Ruyl’s translation of the Gospel of Matthew in 1612 (barely a year after the completion of the King James Version English language translation) and published in 1629 (copy extant in the Wurttembergische Landesbibliothek, Stuttgart, Germany and the British Museum). This convention has been followed in subsequent translations including the first complete Malay translation of the Bible in 1733 by Leijdekker (even earlier if we count Valentyn’s “unauthorised” Maluku Malay translation of 1727 which was revision of de Lange’s translation of 1677).
This really isn’t a contemporary development and to allow such revisionism for political expediency in this area unchallenged would invite further incursions in the future; perhaps on other aspects of culture or creed of the other communities in Malaysia.
On why “Allah” instead of “Tuhan” – as Lucia mentioned above both are used depending on the context and which meaning it is meant to convey .. whether it is in reference to the proper name of God (ie. the Tetragrammaton YHWH), Lord, or a generic god. I gave this a little bit more treatment here and here.
A comparative table of how Christian scriptures have been translated in Malay through the centuries with a consistent usage of the term “Allah” can be seen here.
On the charge of proselytism .. this is a bit more tricky. Contextualisation of the Christian gospel has always been a tradition of the Church .. whereby the message while presented unchanged in its substance is in form presented in a way that is “native” to the target audience. The same can be said of most of the faith systems extant in the contemporary period. Buddhism adapted to Chinese and Southeast Asian cultures and forms, Hinduism did the same (ie. Bali). Even Islam has contextualised itself to the culture and traditions of the regions where it is extant (ie. Kebatinan forms in Java, the various fiqhs and mazhabs). And Abrahamic faiths have generally been expansive in nature.
Whether or not this is legal in this country is still subject to some quiet debate; especially on the constitutionality of such laws. While one can understand the fears of the Muslim community in having their faith undermined, there is the discomforting reality that this is a pluralistic society. Generally there is very little direct effort to proselytise Muslims in Malaysia .. primarily because the more influential Christians in this country tend to be ethnic minorities with our own little hang ups and siege mentalities. So a lot of the fear is actually mutually misplaced.
As I have asserted, this is probably nothing more than a sinister attempt to foster a climate of fear and mistrust among the peoples of Malaysia .. the more divided we are .. the easier it is to rule. While matters like this could have been resolved with mutual dialogue, respect and level headed understanding, some politicians decided to wield a big stick and make this into the potentially explosive issue that it is in danger of evolving into.
(Sorry for hijacking your blog Lucia)
January 9th, 2008 on 5:24 AM
UMNO’s motives (as well as those of PAS) in this matter have very little to do with religious piety – it’s part of its political manoeuvres to outflank PAS and to retain (if not expand) the size of their staked Islamic constituency.
By the by, wits0 old chum, I love the OT, which incidentally is still very very relevant to many Israelis (especially the Likudites, Kadima-ians, and their ultras) – this wonderful book is packed full of sex, rapes, murders, incest, adultery (King David), Machiavellian plots, cheating (the greatest robber of all Jacob, who deceived his dad to rob his bro Esau of his birthrights, while he in turned was cheated by his own dad-in-law), wars, genocides against other nations like the Amakelites as in
Thus says the Lord of hosts,.. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camels and donkey! – 1 Samuel 15:2-3
etc
If not for the OT, Scripture in school would have been dull.

January 9th, 2008 on 8:23 AM
Faith is as strong as how you believe in it and no matter what influence you will still hold on to it. I can’t foresee how someone brought up from young to a religion can suddenly be influenced to switch by simply reading a single literature. Often a change in faith is a long process of self understanding and beliefs that if often hard and long thought of. I believe as well that no religion can copyright the name of God if so then the Messiah’s name hold no exclusivity to any single religion as Muslims also believes that Nabi Yesus was a prophet so does the Christian community want to copyright it and say ‘No Jesus is exclusive to us’. I’ve been a lifelong atheist and am thankful that though my family is Catholic have allowed me to choose my own religion if I wished. I have people coming to me to evangelize me especially the smaller Christian sects and churches which are the most firebrand, I’ve attended church for two years but was never influenced, I feel secure walking into a Hindu temple, a Muslim mosque, Buddhist temple or Sikh Gudwara without worry.
I have been in Sabah for 5 years and have seen that the numbers of the Malay chapter congregation serving mainly Sabahans and Indonesians using the word Allah in sermons and in writings for years without grouse. The Herald is mainly sold in churches with a circulation of 12,000 nationwide and not to the general public. To limit those who cannot read English and Mandarin is a disservice and in contravention of the right to religion and no religion should claim exclusivity to God be it in faith or in name. Who knows, we may be praying to the same Great Power in the guise of different names. InsyaAllah and Amen.
January 9th, 2008 on 11:39 AM
`UMNO’s motives (as well as those of PAS) in this matter have very little to do with religious piety`
Disagree. It has everything to do with it. Ask Menj, he can teach you.
January 9th, 2008 on 11:46 AM
this wonderful book is packed full of sex, rapes, murders, incest, adultery (King David), Machiavellian plots, cheating (the greatest robber of all Jacob, who deceived his dad to rob his bro Esau of his birthrights, while he in turned was cheated by his own dad-in-law), wars, genocides against other nations like the Amakelites as in – by temoc
What a rave. You are muslim? They are full of it, why you afraid to talk of them. You got muslim lover or wat? Must defend her no matter wat is it? Sicko.
January 9th, 2008 on 11:54 AM
lucia: kesava, to be fair, KT did not actually mentioned or implied he support proselytizing to muslims.
What I said was: `So KTemoc supports proselytizing by muslims but not others.`
This proves me correct:
gangeticus said…In itself, its OK. You may comment on my religion, its free speech. But when you mention stuff like this “…Kitab-kitab agama Hindu ini walaupun telah dirubah dan dikotori dengan begitu teruk…” Well, still OK, I guess.
The part that makes me reject whatever you are peddling is when you say its “wajib” to convert the non muslims.
Thanks, but no thanks! I happen to believe in my religion, and I think I can physically proof the truth of my religion.
http://pasnationalunity.blogspot.com/2007/12/pas-indian-supporters-bridging-earth.html
January 9th, 2008 on 11:59 AM
Why is it if someone wants to marry a muslim, they must convert to muslim?
What is that?
January 9th, 2008 on 11:59 AM
Kervin : Who knows, we may be praying to the same Great Power in the guise of different names. InsyaAllah and Amen.
No, Kervin, if this is true, we cannot have such contrasting attributes ascribed to both. I understand your defense on utility of usage but disagree that this makes the impossible true.
KayTee, see what happens when you make a mountain out of a molehill and call it the Everest?
January 9th, 2008 on 12:08 PM
Also, KayTee, where’s the evidence that the Likudites, Kadima-ians, and their ultras live by the Mosaic Laws and those of the ancient savage Jewish people in the OT. And then came Reformer Jesus for the Christians, and this you’ve selectively not factored in. You simply hate Christians because the OT Jewish people were savages among other savages. Is this logical? Afterwards, how many series of wars equivalent to Jihads http://www.historyofjihad.com/ were the Jews responsible for?
January 9th, 2008 on 12:17 PM
KTemoc ignores this genocide when he loves the one side:
“The massacres perpetrated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks; more extensive even than the slaughter of the South American native populations by the invading Spanish and Portuguese.”
iii- Francois Gautier
Hindu Holocaust Museum
http://www.mantra.com/holocaust/
January 9th, 2008 on 5:51 PM
`Allah` is not an Arab word, but Sanskrit:
It might come as a stunning revelation to many that the word ‘ALLAH’ itself is Sanskrit. In Sanskrit language Allah, Akka and Amba are synonyms. They signify a goddess or mother. The term ‘ALLAH’ forms part of Sanskrit chants invoking goddess Durga, also known as Bhavani, Chandi and Mahishasurmardini. The Islamic word for God is., therefore, not an innovation but the ancient Sanskrit appellation retained and continued by Islam. Allah means mother or goddess and mother goddess.”
http://mysticsaint.blogspot.com/2006/01/kaaba-and-its-connection-with-hindu.html
January 10th, 2008 on 2:46 AM
bob
oh no you were not hijacking my blog at all. you did keep to topic, and thanks for the interesting history bits.
kervin
quote: “I can’t foresee how someone brought up from young to a religion can suddenly be influenced to switch by simply reading a single literature.”
exactly! that’s why i find it so ridiculous to say herald’s use of allah is trying to proselytize muslim… so much so that i have to do a post on it (my post ‘proselytizing and evangelising) and write a letter about it to malaysiakini.
kesava at 11.46am
although i am a christian, i don’t feel offended at what ktemoc had to say about the OT book, so why should you get mad? it’s true in a way what ktemoc said that the OT book is full of sex, incest, murders, etc. perhaps you have not read the whole OT book, so didn’t get to find out.
and your question why is it someone when married to a muslim, must convert to muslim – because that’s the way it is for the religion.
wits at 12.08pm
er… i don’t think ktemoc hate christians. it’s not fair to say that based on his view of… the bible re: the jews?… or his insistence that herald is trying to proselytize muslim? whatever… no i know ktemoc does not hate christians. it’s too harsh to say that. he neither hate muslim or hindus or buddhists too!! i’m sure we ALL don’t too!!
January 10th, 2008 on 7:59 AM
You are totally wrong. I have the bible and the koran and many other books. So I have read the OT and got to find out.
As for whether i am mad or not, you will never ever find out – and i am not losing any sleep over it.
As to if you as a christian don`t get offended i really don`t care.
`because that’s the way it is for the religion.` – that`s the question that follows from what you post.
If you don`t want such comments, then don`t post such items. Leave it to others.
Anyway i will not be bothering you, or your friend Ktemoc anymore. I have better things to do. Have fun.
January 10th, 2008 on 3:18 PM
oh my dear kesava, aiyah don’t go yet lah. I wnat to discuss with you what you posted, as in:
“KTemoc ignores this genocide when he loves the one side:
“The massacres perpetrated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks; more extensive even than the slaughter of the South American native populations by the invading Spanish and Portuguese.â€
iii- Francois Gautier
Hindu Holocaust Museum”
It’s terrible for just one person to be killed in communal violence, but your claim about Muslim massacring Hindus are grossly exaggerated and unsubstantiated. The worst communal violence in the subcontinent occurred in teh Greeat Partition between India and Pakistan (including its former eastern wing, what is now known as Bangladesh). The death toll ranges from 200,000 to 1 million, but most have settled on a figure of 500,000. A terrible terrible massacre but one not limited to Hindus being killed as the death toll comprises Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs.
But the worst massacre or genocide occurred in Europe during WWII where 6 million European Jews and an equal number of non-Jews (Soviets, Slavics, ethnic Poles, gay men, the disabled, Jehovah Witnesses, political dissents and about 2,000,000 Romani people, whom we call gypsies). That’s nearly 12 million victims, 24 times gretaer than those killed in teh Great Partition.
During WWII in the East the Japanese slaughtered 500,000 Chinese in the Nanking area. Again, the death toll varies, ranging from a mere few thousands (by Japanese rightwing sources) to 1 million. Most accept it’s aroudn 500,000. Recent revelation by USA’s releasing wartime archives on 12 Dec 2007 confirmed the toll as half a mil.
As for my dear wits0, I didn’t factor JC in because I was talking about the OT – JC wasn’t born on earth yet. The Holy Book of the religious Israelis (and most Jews) is teh Tanakh, which comprises 39 of the OT books.
Aiyah, why accuse me of hating Christians lah