religious freedom trampled on
Post on May.31, 2007
in my last post when i lamented about no freedom of religion after lina joy’s verdict, a commenter, jee, asked me not to exaggerate the issue – that s/he and i are still free to practise our religions. sure but i was not talking about s/he and i. i was talking about malays/muslim. at any rate if she and i choose to convert to islam, there’ll be no ‘coming out’ from islam ever, so there you have it, no freedom of religion too (already being muslim)…… and there you have it, all points to malays/muslim having no freedom of religion.
many of the blogs and news website i visited which talked about lina joy’s verdict did mentioned no freedom of religion too. here are some of them:
Freedom of religion took a beating in Malaysia when the country’s highest court ruled Wednesday that a Muslim woman cannot renounce her faith unless sanctioned by the sharia court, which is a near impossible hope.
In what has been dubbed a blow to Malaysia’s religious freedom, the country’s highest court on Wednesday denied an appeal by Christian convert Lina Joy to make her switch from Islam recognized by law.
Lina Joy’s 10-year battle to be herself as she wanted to be within the confines of the supreme law of the country, the Federal Constitution, has been dashed by the Federal Court’s decision this morning. The freedom of religion guaranteed by the Federal Constitution under Article 11 comes across as hollow and meaningless.
after all, what is religious freedom if a 43 years old malay woman isn’t allowed to follow the faith of her choosing?
In what has been dubbed a blow to Malaysia’s religious freedom, the country’s highest court today denied an appeal by Christian convert Lina Joy to make her switch from Islam recognized by law.
there are many more. i have no time to source them out here but if you go browsing here and there, i’m sure you’ll notice them. all in all, 30 may 2007 prove to be a sad historic day where freedom of religion is denied. again i have better say it – i know i know all those blah blah about islam must bow down to syariah law and the law says one can’t leave the religion and all that stuffs… but aren’t those man made laws? doesn’t the quran mentioned there should be no compulsion in islam?
other links:
for malaysiakini’s news (if you no sub to it):
m’kini: no joy for lina
also some other good readings here and here.
the best post (beside the one from malaysia today, as pointed out by a commenter, jnhgfd), i read from a blogger would have to be from politics101. he expressed my sentiments exactly especially on the part of the reaction of those muslim groups at the court (and some muslim bloggers) being so happy and shouting allahuakabar and saying the verdict is a victory for islam. rather, it is the opposite. this is part of what he wrote:
It wasn’t a victory for Islam by any stretch of the imagination. Islam doesn’t need a lousy split decision to show its elegance and glory.
Islam doesn’t need all the allahu akabar nonsense outside the courthouse.
If anything, this episode shows there are many who believe they have the religious right to use standover tactics to pressure, intimidate and frustrate those who exercise their constitutional right to freely embrace a religion of their choice.
go and read further – the louts are dumb, he said! 
!
May 31st, 2007 on 11:12 AM
Stupid cunt,
you missed the point here. You want fish, go to the market, you want a haircut, go to the barber. You want flower, go to the florist. You want to declare yourself an apostate, go to the Syariah cout, why go to the civil court?
lucia: name calling. vulgar. therefore i’m going to ignore you.
if this persists i am going to ban/delete your comments.
May 31st, 2007 on 11:50 AM
Hi Lucia,
I was very disappointed with the outcome, very sad for Lina Joy’s situation. However, I think its important not to overblow the significance of this decision. The court was asked 3 narrowly focussed questions on law, and the answers it provided were logical, though not what I would like it to be.
No ground breaking constitutional ruling was made, the court just re-affirmed currently understood practice. The court basically said, a Muslim can’t just ask the NRD to change their religion. They have to go back to the Syariah court. The Federal court did not specifically deny her the right to change her religion.
You know and I know that the Syariah court will not agree to it, and may lock her up in one of the "Re-Education camps" to have her faith re-programmed (It gives me the creeps just writing this). But the Federal Court’s was not tasked to make any ruling on that.
Let me give you a non-religious example here. Did you know that you have the right to change your name, if you wish to ? The legal procedure is rather long winded , and it will test your patience and energy. But that doesn’t take away your right.
There are some other serious religious issues in Malaysia which this ruling does not address. The first, I have mentioned, are "Re-Education camps" where possible apostates are locked up and subject to gentle or not so gentle pressure to correct their brains. To me this is a human rights violation, but it seems as a non-Muslim I have no right to protest it.
Other issues like the Subashini case, where the custody of children born of a marriage contracted under civil law suddenly becomes Syariah court territory because the father had converted to Islam. The Constitution of Malaysia (Schedule 9) specifically states that Syariah courts have no jurisdiction over non-Muslims
lucia: yes i do have some idea of the ‘re-education camps’. why, even one prominent blogger himself said it all out loudly that lina ought to be punished and all that (re-educate).
May 31st, 2007 on 2:31 PM
ikanbuntal: Wow. I feel dumber just by reading that.
Speaking as a Muslim, this verdict was a massive, if inevitable disappointment. I felt sick when I heard about the people who cheered the result. That’s not what true Muslims do.
Freedom of religion my arse.
lucia: exactly what i would say too but being a lady i did not.
May 31st, 2007 on 6:34 PM
Jeffrey:
“Speaking as a Muslim, this verdict was a massive, if inevitable disappointment. I felt sick when I heard about the people who cheered the result. That’s not what true Muslims do.”
Well said,I salute you !
May 31st, 2007 on 9:47 PM
As much as they said it’s not a victory for the Muslims… few fanatics are already shouting and clapping happily…
and they call this Malaysia Boleh..
naive
lucia: to the fanatics they believe this is a victory for islam… but on the contrary… i would say otherwise.
June 1st, 2007 on 9:53 AM
Lucia,
Victory or not, why is that an issue? Let’s put it this way: (I’m not sure if you are a married mother) Your child wants to leave the religion you have brought him up in, and you would do ANYTHING for that religion that you love very much. What would you do? If your child is old enough to make his own decisions, would you (exercise your rights as a parent and protector of your faith, and) prevent him? Or would you willingly let him leave and embrace a religion of his choice? Would you try your best to talk him out of it, since you feel strongly for the religion that you uphold? Would you honestly let him go?
I hope I am not being judmental here, but you feel this way because you are a Catholic (as stated in your profile), and any effort preventing another to embrace your religion, you would feel oblige to fight against. Have you ever thought of how Lina Joy’s parents, being devout Muslims, feel?
Freedom of religion in Malaysia has prevailed as there is no restriction on a Catholic turning Baptist or Buddhist. Nor a Hindu embracing Christianity or Islam… If you had read her mother’s last interview before she left for her Umrah in Mekah, you would have read that she did not go for the Majlis Agama’s counselling, an “exit interview”, if you will. Did Lina Joy go through the entire “exit” programme?
I am trying very hard to balance logical thinking, Islamic obligations, human rights and the Constitution in making this comment. But having said all, I just have one question: Have you read and understood the Quran, since your comment has everything to do with it? Yes, you are talking about the Constitution, but here, we are not just dealing with the Constitution; we are dealing with a woman, leaving a religion on the basis of upholding the Constitution. It is serious matter, any angle you look at it.
Please bear in mind that this is just my personal view… People who do not understand Islam nor have read the Quran in totality, should do so before commenting on such issues. Call Islam cruel or whatever you want, but Islam is not a recreational club that you can just join and leave at your pleasure. The Federal Court’s ruling may seem harsh on Lina Joy but it’s all about setting precedence… Have you completely understood Nyonya Tahir’s case? Or Moorthy Abdullah? Do not just look at Lina Joy’s case just because she’s still alive. Consider also the cases where the subject is no longer alive. Study their cases, and make comparisons. Then, you will see the answer.
have a nice day.
June 1st, 2007 on 11:45 AM
Trampling of religious freedom or the promise of death?
http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002832.html
According to Sharia, or Islamic Law, the penalty for apostasy is death….pressure by Islamic extremists is intensifying daily: they are intent on preventing a positive outcome of the case that may pave the way for a “flight from Islam” by other believers. Recently, for example, the parish where Lina Joy was baptized learned it has a police record.
The parishioners of Our Lady of Fatima, Brickfields, where Joy was baptized, were informed about a police report against their parish. According to the Harakah fortnightly paper dated August 16-31, a man called Taib Hisham reported the church, claiming that Joy’s baptism went against Article 11 of the Constitution that says: “The law may control or restrict the propagation of any religious doctrine or belief among persons professing the religion of Islam.”
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=7001
In Malaysia someone has been circulating a poster calling for death of a well-known attorney, Malik Imtiaz Sarwar who, acting as an observer on behalf of the Malaysian Bar Council (MBC), has followed the case of Lina Joy, a Muslim woman who converted to Christianity, currently before the courts in the appeal phase of her case.
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=7065
Lina Joy’s fight for religious freedom is turning into a fight for the right to live. The Muslim convert to Christianity and her would-be Christian husband have gone into hiding after extremists issued death threats against her for apostasy….. human rights lawyer Malik Imtiaz Sarwar, who has been an observer at the appeal trial for the Malaysian Bar Council, and whose face now appears in a ‘Wanted Dead’ poster.
The message that came with the photo was no less clear: “This is the face of the traitorous lawyer to Islam who supports the Lina Joy apostasy case. Distribute to our friends so they can recognize this traitor. If you find him dead by the side of the road, do not help.”
June 1st, 2007 on 12:59 PM
Al Abdullah, I agree 100% with your view. Unfortunately, not all people understand what is Islam all about. Lina has been influenced by her non-muslim boyfriends and non-muslim friends. In fact, Lina should be strong hold her faith since she was born as a Muslim. I pray to my God, Allah S.W.T to bring back Azlina to her original religion which is Islam and hope that she will repent so that she won’t regret when she dies. She still have a chance to repent and go back to Islam because everybody loves her and want her to come back. I also love Azlina because she’s my relative, once you were born in Islam, you will be my relative. I hope that she will realize and wake up from her sleep. You cannot regret your life when the death comes.
For all non-muslims friends, I hope you understand what Islam is all about. The judges did not force but they want to help Azlina so that she won’t be punished when the judgement day comes.
June 1st, 2007 on 2:50 PM
Arisha76,
Well said. I am sure Lina took the easy way out, having been at a crossroad between her family and Islam, and her boyfriend and Christianity. Maybe love blinded her, maybe Islam responsibilities are a chore to her, we don’t know. But I hope that she looks at things on a long term basis. What if she regrets leaving Islam at her deathbed? If that split second she managed to taubat (repent), Alhamdullilah… But if not, not just Lina will be questioned by the Almighty… You and I will also be questioned why we had not played our role… Islam is such that we care for each other unconditionally… We have had numerous solat hajat berjemaah at her mother’s masjid to pray that the Almighty will grace her the chance to return to Islam…
I am a convert, having previously been a Baptist. I used to be a devout Christian… But that didn’t stop me from knowing another religion. While reading the bible, I had my eyes on the Quran, too… But God moves in mysterious ways, they said. Indeed He does! I don’t have the right to belittle Christianity… But I pray that whoever is serious about belonging to a religion and serving the Almighty, will go and pick up the Quran, and read it without any prejudice… Give yourself the fair chance to know Islam before you say no to it… Between Christianity and Islam, I know the difference… So, it’s not difficult to guess what could’ve contributed to Lina leaving Islam…
Lucia, thanks for the space and chance to voice my opinion. I hope I had not offended you in any way. If I had, I extend my apology and a friendly handshake. Peace!
June 1st, 2007 on 4:20 PM
Why would Lina Joy have to make herself subject to the Syariah Court? She does not consider herself a muslim anymore, so thats the end of the story.
If you work for a company and you are fed up with your work or the company you send a letter of resignation. And you go on in your life.
Would it not be nice if the boss could send you for ‘rehabilitation’ so you do not leave the company? Think everybody would cry foul!
Religions in Malaysia are way to sensitive in all aspects. Look at Europe where probably 60% or more of people by now is a non-believer.
Does it make them bad people because they do not believe in any God?
June 1st, 2007 on 4:55 PM
Albert,
Do not liken leaving a religion to leaving a job. They are two entirely different things. For one, a job pays you at the end of the month. Religion and faith, don’t.
Lina is subjected to Syariah Court because she was leaving Islam. So, she was subjected to Syariah Court because only this court can certify her leaving the religion. If she has a concrete cse, why would she need to worry? Just go and say her piece. Look at the case of Nyonya Tahir. Didn’t her offsprings prove to the court that she (Nyonya Tahir) had voluntarily left the religion? Didn’t they win the case? So, does that mean that Syariah Court is the iron-fisted institution many believe it is?
Lina doesn’t consider herself a Muslim anymore, but that does not relieve her family, and the Majlis Agama of their responsibility of rehabilitating her. If it doesn’t make sense to you, that’s because you do not understand (or refuse to accept) this concept called Fardu Kifayah. It is the responsibility of those around her to do something. They are not being busy-body; it is Allah’s instruction that they must do so. Only after doing so, will the responsibility of saving Lina be lifted off them.
Don’t even challenge this fact because man did not fabricate this requirement. Allah did. And since the religion Lina was leaving is Islam, it is very much the jurisdiction of the Majlis Agama and the Syariah Court to do their job.
Again, one must read up on Islam to understand this. Non-Muslims will only see how it goes against the Constitution and human rights but it’s more than just that. It is very easy for non-muslims to use their emotions in judging the situation.
Whatever it is, bear in mind that the Syariah Court is fair in carrying out its duties. Why am I so sure? If laymen Muslims cheat or act bias, they know the penalty come judgement day. The judges of the Syariah Court know better than to cheat or act biasly. Theirs is a bigger responsibilty, carrying bigger liability and penalty… Wallahu’alam (Allah knows best).
Hope this explanation sheds some light on the issue. But please remember: this is how I see it, and as far as I know, is factually correct. I do not represent the Majlis Agama nor the Syariah Court.
Have a nice evening ahead.
June 1st, 2007 on 10:58 PM
Al Abdullah,
At the end of my job i get paid.
If you have a religion , at the end of your life you hope to get paid by going to heaven, reincarnate or whatever the religion tells you about afterlife.
The rest of your story i completely disagree for various reasons, but i will not go into a religious discussion here.
June 2nd, 2007 on 12:45 AM
Dear fellow frens,
I respects every religion and strongly believe each one encourages people to be good and to live in harmony with others. Taking out the argument on religion, has anyone thought of how Lina feels ? Everyone has the right to say and do what they think is right but does anyone really know and care what Lina feels ?
Just reverse the situation, a girl which is born in a non Muslim family with extremely stronghold of religion for generations, and she has finally decided to convert into Muslim after she receives the message from the true God that she beliefs in. How would you feel when everyone around her tells her that she is lost or influenced by someone, and can’t make a right decision ? Who holds the right and responsible for her afterall ? The answer is no one but herself. It’s not easy to accept this from the aspect of religion. But if she still hold her responsibility as a good daughter to her parents and siblings, good spouse to her companion, and good fren to the rest, can’t we still accept her for who she is ? Time will show the truth and she will finally understand what is the right thing one day.
World peace and blessings to all.
June 2nd, 2007 on 1:00 AM
Hi Lucia,
Wow…I just realised that one of the side effects of the posting of Lina Joy’s case outcome, is that a lot of Muslims/ Malays whom I didn’t even realise read your blog have come out to defend their views.
Nothing wrong with that, I’m all for an open exchange of views, as long as people talk about it logically and don’t use abusive language.
Your blog has always been one of the most “respectable” Malaysian blogs, no bad language, always well written. I hope all the commentators respect this, even if they disagree with what your opinions.
June 2nd, 2007 on 2:46 AM
kittykat
me blog one of the most respected? always well written? why thanks for the kind words (though i wouldn’t say my blog is ALWAYS well written).
i am surprise myself to see many new commenters coming forward due to the lina joy issue. well so far all of them (except one!) had been sensible in offering their views. yes we must respect each other (and no name calling!) even we have different views.
to ALL who comment here i would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your comments and views. you may not like what i write here, you have every right to disagree with me, and i’m glad that you are doing it in a sensible, matured way. right now here, i would like to respond to al abdullah.
al abdullah "I hope I am not being judmental here, but you feel this way because you are a Catholic (as stated in your profile), and any effort preventing another to embrace your religion, you would feel oblige to fight against." no, you are wrong there. me being a catholic is irrelevant in my views on lina joy’s case. even if i’m buddhist or hindu, i would have given the same view. i don’t feel the need to ‘fight’ for my religion anyway. my main contention here is about lina wanting to leave islam for another religion, and in this case, it happens to be christian (catholic). even if she is leaving islam for buddhism or hindusism i would have the same opinion.
you asked what if my child wants to leave our religion (christianity). ok i’m not married but i can substitute child for siblings, parents or any loved ones. well if my child is over 21 already and s/he wants to leave our religion to join another, of course i will be devastated. angry at first. sad. disappointed. everyone would. i will try to talk some sense into her/him, try to persuade her/him not to leave… BUT if s/he insists, then what can i do? after all s/he is an adult already and should know what s/he is getting into. if her/his heart is no more for christianity, what is the point of me persuading her/him to stay on? s/he would be a bad christian if force to stay! and i’d rather her/him to be a good muslim/buddhist/hindu than a bad christian!
ou said yourself that you are a convert. what happened when you told your loved ones you were going to become a muslim? i’m sure they objected too but ultimately it was your decision so they let you be. "
Islam is not a recreational club that you can just join and leave at your pleasure. " uh oh sound like judge ahmad fairus who said one cannot embrace or leave a religion according to one’s whims and fancies, which is rather unprofessional of him. lina left islam at the age of 26. now she is already 42 and her heart is still with christianity, do you think she left islam at her whims and fancies?
please enlighten me, if you don’t mind – how does one join islam? can anyone simply join islam? is there a screening first? must the person take a course first? since i’m a christian, i can tell you how one ‘masuk christianity’. when a person voiced her/his intention to become a christian, s/he has to attend a ‘catchesim course’ for 9 months, once every week. and in between the months, there will be 3 ceremonies (sort of initiation ceremonies). also in between classes, the ‘teacher’ will check on the person’s background/family. s/he will become a christian only after finishing the whole course of 9 months (and if s/he is absent too many times for the classes without good excuse, s/he would be advised to leave the class).
you see, it is not that easy to ‘masuk christianity’. classes to attend, ceremonies to undergo before one can said to be a christian. this is because we want to make sure that the person really wants to become a catholic with full understanding of the faith, and not simply ‘masuk’ to please someone or to add to the statistics. what about ‘masuk islam’? AFAIK when one voiced her/his intention to one to become a muslim, it only take a few weeks to become one. correct me if i’m wrong.
"Have you read and understood the Quran, since your comment has everything to do with it? Yes, you are talking about the Constitution, but here, we are not just dealing with the Constitution; we are dealing with a woman, leaving a religion on the basis of upholding the Constitution. It is serious matter, any angle you look at it." excuse me… my comment has everything to do with the quran? in what way? you are exaggerating. most of my comments (in blog post) has nothing to do with the quran. yes i was talking about the constitution that should provide us with freedom of religion. you mentioned it yourself – "… dealing with a woman, leaving a religion on the basis of upholding the constitution….". though i know that islam forbid one to leave its religion, i choose not to mention it.
of course i do not read the quran. i don’t feel it is right of people to say "don’t argue, talk too much, if you don’t read the quran" or similarly "you are not a muslim, so you have no right to talk on this issue". one doesn’t need to know how to swim to talk about swimming. anyway, in marina’s blog, she had pointed out a part of the quran which mentioned that there should be no compulsion in islam. see? doesn’t that interpret to as the quran saying you shouldn’t force the person if s/he wants to be out?
June 2nd, 2007 on 8:36 AM
Hi Lucia
After reading the many postings on your blog, especially those by our Muslim brethrens, I though it would be fitting to highlight certain correlations between the Bible and the Koran in the way we perceive which religion is the “right” religion for us mortals to adhere to.
From the many postings made, it is made to appear that for one to enter Paradise is to become a Muslim [period] and therefore, it is the sworn duty of every Muslim to ensure that no Muslim leaves the religion come what may, even if it means taking the life of the apostate.
The Muslims believe in the Prophet Moses and here is one account from Exodus which tells of the freedom of choice by God. As Moses descended from the mountain (Sinai) after receiving the ten commandments from God, he saw before his eye the revelry that was going on in the camp of the Israelites. He then told the people if they truly believe in God, they were to come and stand next to him; and if they don’t, they could stay where they were and perish. The people made their choices.
Next, the Muslims say they also believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, and yet to enter Paradise, one must be a Muslim. The Christians also hold true to their own teachings as can be reflected in the following verses:
“I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture (John 10:9). ”
“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand (John 10:28). ”
“Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). ”
” I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:5-6).”
Therefore, it is also the “sworn” duty of Christians to ensure that fellow Christians do not leave the religion as they would then have lost the salvation of God. Unlike the Muslims who tend to make a hue and cry about this, the Christians go about it in their own quiet way to solve the problem.
Again, since the Muslims say that they believe in our Lord Jesus Christ and the Last Day, does it mean just to become a Muslim entitle you to a place in Paradise? Believe me it is more than that …
Matthew 25:31-46
On Judgement Day, the Lord is going to say this -
“Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.â€
37Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?â€
40And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,* you did it to me.†41Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.â€
44Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?†45Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.†46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’
So to all my Muslim brethrens, where do you go from here? Have you done a good deed lately?
June 2nd, 2007 on 2:06 PM
Other than ikanbuntal, I’m genuinely amazed at how polite everyone is. No personal attacks at all. I’m not sure what to think of all this.
Lucia: All you have to do to become a Muslim is to recite the shahadah (basically saying that there’s no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of God). There may be some minor paperwork involved but basically that’s all there is to it.
And I actually understand the desire to “rehabilitate” someone if they stray from the faith. No one wants to see their loved ones burn in hell.
But Islam also teaches personal responsibility. Whether you believe she made the right choice or not, it is her choice to make and live with.
June 3rd, 2007 on 2:41 AM
billy
thanks for showing the correlation between the bible and the koran. i hope though this would not give rise to further debate on which religion among islam and christianity is better. religion talk is always a sensitive issue and i always believe all religions are equal. there’s no such thing as which religion is better or one religion has to be the supreme religion.
jeffrey
yep, that’s nice to know, isn’t it, that everyone here were acting in a civil, friendly way (except that fish!). i do believe, by nature, we are all nice people!
yes indeed, islam, like any other religion, teaches personal responsibility. that’s why i can understand how our muslim brethrens feel towards lina joy’s leaving islam. as i had mentioned in my response to al abdullah, for sure we all would be devastated if we find our loved ones OR even someone we don’t know (in the case of lina joy) leaving our religion, and we feel it is our responsibility to talk her/him into not leaving… BUT we should also understand that ultimately it is up to the person to decide.
June 4th, 2007 on 10:59 AM
Lucia,
My family didn’t object me becoming a Christian, and neither did they object me becoming a Muslim. For this, I thank them. My dad did remind me that once a person embraces Islam, there is no leaving. (now, how did he know that? As far as I know, he never read the Quran!)
To “masuk Islam”, all a person need is to be sincere in embracing the religion. Key word here being SINCERE. Of course, there are many who embraced Islam just to marry Malay/Muslim spouses, but that is separate issue. I do not know about other converts, but I attended KAFA (Quran and Fardu Ain) classes for about 10 months before I profess the syahadah (profession of faith) in front of an Ustaz, and two male witnesses.
Of course, I went through a thorough education period before I was oficially made a Muslim. It was by my own choice that I left Christianity to become a Muslim. Many Muslims around me rallied to me to assist me. However, no one from my former church bothered to find out how spiritually weak I was in my Christian life. (OK, that’s another separate issue!)
And Billy, do you know the difference between the KJV and the NIV versions of the bible? OK, I am no longer a Christian, but please go and find out the differences, and you shall see what I mean! I do not allow myself to comment on Christianity issues. period.
Lucia,
Marina is not an ulamak. She doesn’t even know that she is required by Islam to wear the tudung. REQUIRED. Meaning, it’s NOT an option… If she knows her Islam stuff, that is…
She quoted ONE part of the Quran. Does she know how many parts there are to the Quran? Does she know that reading the Quran means reading the WHOLE book, not just single out ONE part? Does she know that the Quran is not one of those menus she picks up at those halal/non-halal restaurants? Meaning, when you claim to be a Muslim, you don’t pick and choose what you want to follow from the Quran. Does she know that the Quran is to be read AND understood in its entirety? Does she knows that she (as a Muslim) needs to accept the content of the Quran in its ENTIRETY?
Lucia, since you quoted her, would you also do me a favour and forward those questions to her? I would really like to know her response. I don’t have any contact with her.
Lest this reply spark off heated debates, I shall stop commenting unless really necessary. What I wanted to say is that, many things in Islam seem to be rediculous to the non-Muslims. I do not blame you. Let’s just say that most Muslims accept whatever that is required of them in Islam. Of course, there are some exceptions here and there, just like there are black sheeps in any family… To understand Islam, one has to read about it, read the Quran and spend time to acquire the wisdom of the learned ulamaks… You don’t need to know how to swim to talk about swimming, but I am not a rocket scientist, would you believe what I say about space travel and cosmic evolution? How credible do you think I am?
My apology if I stepped on anybody’s foot. This world is nasty enough, let’s not make more enemies, ok?
Have a nice day ahead, and peace!
June 5th, 2007 on 11:18 PM
Al,
I think you lost credibility when you said that you do not comment on Christianity and yet you want to have your cake and eat it too:
“And Billy, do you know the difference between the KJV and the NIV versions of the bible? OK, I am no longer a Christian, but please go and find out the differences, and you shall see what I mean! I do not allow myself to comment on Christianity issues. period.”
And do you know the what’s lost in the Qur’an?
June 5th, 2007 on 11:28 PM
Al,
So when you left Christianity, no one bothered you.
But when Lina left Islam, became a Christian (note past tense) and wants the word “muslim” removed from her IC, she has to approach the Syariah Court?
No offense, but folks like you who change religions have a terribly warped sense of logic and fairness.
June 6th, 2007 on 1:58 AM
abdullah
i am not going to respond to you further as i feel that this will only go round and round non stop… but i will respond only on the marina mahathir part. no, i will not forward those Qs you asked. since they are your Qs, you do it yourself. you can go to her blog at
http://rantingsbymm.blogspot.com/
look for her email or ask in her blog.